Forums - Post-B5 MvC2 and CvS tiers? Show all 57 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- Post-B5 MvC2 and CvS tiers? (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=34729) Posted by CaliScrub on 08:07:2001 03:06 AM: Post-B5 MvC2 and CvS tiers? Don't know if this really belongs in Strategy & Tactics or just in the regular Gaming Discussion forum... Anything happen at B5 that drastically altered public opinion of the top tier? I hear Storm, Sent, and Mags had very good showings in MvC2, and I'm sure lots of people are shocked over GQ's Raiden ownage in CvS... does this really change things from the way they were before? Just an innocent question... Oh well. Everyone will be playing CvS2 in a few months anyway Posted by PrYdErYcE on 08:07:2001 03:28 AM: i dont think any opinions will change about the tiers in mvc2... seeing how most of the top tier teams did well... Posted by Devil Lee on 08:07:2001 07:51 AM: I'm interested in seeing how Raiden was in the winning team of the CvS tourney. Gonna have to find some $$$... Posted by GeekBoy on 08:07:2001 07:54 AM: B5 MvC2 tiers won't change since the same teams were played. CvS, Raiden will be used more. Posted by Fusion on 08:07:2001 10:55 AM: I think more people will be interested in Cammy.. since Justin Wong won the tournament with her. Maybe a little more interest in Mags too.. Hey David Lee. You play mvc2? And how far away do you live from the tri-cities (kennewick)? Lates Posted by Ranchan on 08:07:2001 01:34 PM: quote: Originally posted by Fusion I think more people will be interested in Cammy.. since Justin Wong won the tournament with her. Maybe a little more interest in Mags too.. Hey David Lee. You play mvc2? And how far away do you live from the tri-cities (kennewick)? Lates More interest in Storm you mean? Justin used Storm this time around.. Posted by ZiON on 08:07:2001 02:01 PM: i think people will start using ken/cammy more to get around corner traps, and i also think that doom/storm/cammy/ken will get a whole lot more play. Posted by Shuzer on 08:07:2001 04:34 PM: Raiden will be used more, and different outlooks will be taken when fighting Nako. Raiden is able to handle Nako simply because Nako cannot cross him up w/o being grabbed. But I don't know if US people will be able to use Raiden as precisely... our sticks are ass compared to Japanese sticks. Posted by NIN_CrimzinTerry on 08:07:2001 05:30 PM: Correct me if im wrong but you will only get thrown if you cross up doesnt combo right like there is a pause from your cross up to c. LK so if you combo it in then there is no way he can throw you AND try crossing up with HK with Nak instead of LK. Plus raiden has weaknesses against other players. But like EVERYONE WAS trying to say that CvS there is no real tier except NAK everyone else is about equal IF USED CORRECTLY which was proven with Raiden. Posted by StiltMan on 08:07:2001 07:23 PM: I think the top tier looks about like this for MvC2: Top tier (in rough order) Storm Sentinel Cable Spiral Doom Blackheart Magneto Sub-top tier (good enough to seriously contend, but not really top tier... no particular order) Cyclops Iron Man Dhalsim Iceman Strider Cyclops is good, but I don't think he's quite good enough on point to be top tier any more. And you've got me right... I do not think Strider is top tier any longer. In the entire final tournament, I saw exactly one person pick Strider at all, less even than Iron Man. It was very early in the tournament, and the player who used him lost. Call it whatever you like, but that's not the kind of confidence that a top tier character should bring out of players. The only player left who really banks on Strider any more as his main character is Clockw0rk, who has never been a dominant player and didn't make it out of the pools at B5. Theoretically, the "perfect trap" seems like it's unstoppable... but in practice, it simply isn't perfect, people are learning more and more where the holes are, and Strider's effectiveness is simply not what it used to be. In addition, his requirement of having Doom behind him is a major chemistry issue, because Strider brings basically nothing to a team when he's no longer on point that Doom can make use of, which means that there becomes a huge dilemma in finding a third character that will help both Strider and Doom well enough to enable them to function. I'm not sure that character exists in this game who will do the job well enough to allow Strider/Doom to win at a high level any more, especially now that the holes in the trap have been discovered. As a result, I've got Strider down in the "sub-top" tier at this point. Iron Man isn't good enough that I'm ready to put him in the top yet. Even white displayed very little confidence in him against American competition at B5... he used Iron Man/Sentinel/Psylocke for one match, that I'm aware of, and went to Spiral/Sentinel/Commando for the rest. The latter team is what did all the heavy lifting for him. Posted by Ouroborus on 08:07:2001 10:21 PM: Strider is still top tier. Yes, the trap is very hard to do and he cant afford any mistakes. Further more, the trap needs balls of steel to do and it is very joystick dependent. There are different timings for the trap on different sticks. Although I was sad to see that Strider wasn't used much in B5, there are no mean that he is not top tier. Maybe people should have taken more time learning him. There is only only gamer that uses Strider/Doom and had made a name for himself. His name is Clockw0rk. Sure he didn't win his pool but so did Shady K. Does it mean they suck? Nope. Also, Magneto teams didn't won much matches. Justin and Combofiend's Storm did the work, not Magneto. Justin didn't used Magneto until the finals against Duc and Duc tore apart his Magneto. This doesn't mean that Magneto is not top tier because he still is. Same goes for Strider. Bottom Line: Strider is top tier. Posted by Murakumo on 08:07:2001 11:53 PM: Heh, ppz from up here in the Northwest took out ShadyK, Clockw0rk, and Tone in the pools! Who likes Commando? The NW likes Commando! =P Thong beat ShadyK in the pools. Then I think it was Trinh who beat Clokw0rk and John Mar who beat Tone. Nice upsets going o the NW! ^_^ Dayum, I need to make it to B6! Heh, the NW has shown the can compete at high level. When our guys finally started getting eliminated, it was because they were up against eachother eh? I still don't think Strider is top tier anymore (though I think is was Cody who kicked my ass with him last tourney). Anyways, Clockw0rk didn't make it out of the pools. IF the most well known Strider/Doom player doesn't make it out of the pools, then the player or the team starts to lose credibility as to how great it is. In Clock's favor, I think it's the team. ~Murakumo Posted by Smiley on 08:08:2001 01:51 AM: well, think about it ppl... this is turning into a 'is stirder top tier" issue again. before this get's outa hand, let's check the requirements of top tier. first of all, multi-dimensionalism. besides being a combo freak what else does ol' stirder have? the trap. so let's just say he's 1) combo character and 2) trapper another thing, a good assist. does stirder have a good assist? granted, it doesn't suck (his beta) but it ain't no capcom corridor. strider also has no runaway, keepaway, or battery abilities, since his biggest weapon is the orbs, and they require level(s). strider's teleport also get's him some brownie points. as you can see, almost all the top tiers have an air dash or a teleport (cept cable) so strider's ability to handle GB's increse his worth as well. SO, why pick strider? to be a combo character or a trapper. if you wanna play combo characters, then the obvious choices are mags for his raw combo abilities and storm, for her versitility as well (runaway, and decent battery w/ the throw) THEREFORE, strider's only option emaining is trapping. now, the S/D trap is PERFECT. if it's played right. it takes way to much time to learn the trap in general, and one mistake can screw you up good (such as cancelling into ragnarok by accident). granted, the trap is crazy good, and it locks down everything, but it takes too much effort to invest into a trap that can screw itself up. the whole trap looks great on paper, but in real play, it's not always silky smooth. the spiral trap is much more efficient in that it takes less effort to do, can cover it's mistakes, if any (w/ spiral's instant telly and counter xx AHVB), and it batteries for the big gun on the team (cable) as well, which is why duc's spiral teams win so much. in conclusion, NO i personally do not think strider is top. at least not in real competition play. Posted by CaliScrub on 08:08:2001 02:09 AM: This Raiden stuff intrigues me... how is it that you get free throws off a Nak crossup? And I also heard something about Raiden's pressure game... Stiltman: Magneto at the BOTTOM of the top tier? Last MvC2 tourney at SHGL (a week before B5), I saw a whole lotta Mags rocking the house. I didn't get to go to B5; did a lot of anti-Magneto strategies pop up in that one week period, or were people just STSFN, or what? Because from what I've seen I'm convinced Magneto is at least top 3... Well, thanks for all replies Posted by Smiley on 08:08:2001 02:41 AM: well, actions speak louder then words my friend, and magneto's actions weren't speaking very loudly at B5. shadyk and justin wong, the most notorious mag players around, either got eliminated early, or didn't use mags. maybe ppl were holding thier starts back until b5? maybe, ya never know. maybe it's cause if you like rushdown, storm's the better choice, since you can play defensively as well. w/ mags, you spend the whole fight trying to land one short in. storm has runaway as well. so right now, i too would rate mags bottom low tier, w/ storm/spiral/doom sharing the top 3 slots. sent would be 4th. Posted by Shadow Rail on 08:08:2001 03:11 AM: quote: Originally posted by Ouroborus Strider is still top tier. Yes, the trap is very hard to do and he cant afford any mistakes. Further more, the trap needs balls of steel to do and it is very joystick dependent. There are different timings for the trap on different sticks. Although I was sad to see that Strider wasn't used much in B5, there are no mean that he is not top tier. Maybe people should have taken more time learning him. There is only only gamer that uses Strider/Doom and had made a name for himself. His name is Clockw0rk. Sure he didn't win his pool but so did Shady K. Does it mean they suck? Nope. Also, Magneto teams didn't won much matches. Justin and Combofiend's Storm did the work, not Magneto. Justin didn't used Magneto until the finals against Duc and Duc tore apart his Magneto. This doesn't mean that Magneto is not top tier because he still is. Same goes for Strider. Bottom Line: Strider is top tier. cheh hey...you're that little dude from the picture! whats up, little dude? soh!!! Posted by vega2001 on 08:08:2001 03:43 AM: Thanks for the info. You've made my day. Posted by Shin Akuma on 08:08:2001 08:18 AM: Why...? How come no one uses Shotos......? Posted by Ouroborus on 08:08:2001 08:42 PM: quote: Originally posted by Smiley THEREFORE, strider's only option emaining is trapping. now, the S/D trap is PERFECT. if it's played right. it takes way to much time to learn the trap in general, and one mistake can screw you up good (such as cancelling into ragnarok by accident). granted, the trap is crazy good, and it locks down everything, but it takes too much effort to invest into a trap that can screw itself up. the whole trap looks great on paper, but in real play, it's not always silky smooth. the spiral trap is much more efficient in that it takes less effort to do, can cover it's mistakes, if any (w/ spiral's instant telly and counter xx AHVB), and it batteries for the big gun on the team (cable) as well, which is why duc's spiral teams win so much. in conclusion, NO i personally do not think strider is top. at least not in real competition play. Spiral and Magneto takes about almost the same duration to learn, maybe a bit less. I guess people quit using Strider is mainly because of Striders stamina. Yes, the Spiral trap easier to do, but it doesn't do as much chip as the Strider/Doom trap. Spiral is just as hard to learn, when to reload, when to teleport, and all that. You also have to be perfect with Spiral because she can't deal quick damage except her throws. And with Magneto, he is hard to use also. You gotta know when to rush. There are so many AAA out there that it makes it pain in the ass for Magneto to rush. And also the fact that Magneto is the only top tier that doesn't rely on chip damage makes him hard to use. With Strider the problem he faces are: Low Stamina, mistake moves. (ie: wall climb, ragnorak instead of ouroborus) Spirals problem are: doing quick damage, maintaining her swords. Magneto's problems are: breaking through a trap to rush, and getting around a good AAA. So Strider is still top tier. Posted by Shuzer on 08:08:2001 10:52 PM: quote: Originally posted by CaliScrub This Raiden stuff intrigues me... how is it that you get free throws off a Nak crossup? And I also heard something about Raiden's pressure game... Stiltman: Magneto at the BOTTOM of the top tier? Last MvC2 tourney at SHGL (a week before B5), I saw a whole lotta Mags rocking the house. I didn't get to go to B5; did a lot of anti-Magneto strategies pop up in that one week period, or were people just STSFN, or what? Because from what I've seen I'm convinced Magneto is at least top 3... Well, thanks for all replies Raiden is so god damn big that Nak can't cross him up high enough to combo off of it, which means there's an opening for the throw(i'm going by pass-along info, don't expect it to be right). And the July SHGL tourney was indeed the big stsfn tourney. Face it, you aren't going to bring out the big guns the week before the biggest tourney ever. The only high placing Magneto player was Combo Fiend(Justin played Mag only in the finals, and got owned). And I even heard that Storm did most of the work for him. Posted by Smiley on 08:09:2001 02:35 AM: quote: Originally posted by Ouroborus Spiral and Magneto takes about almost the same duration to learn, maybe a bit less. I guess people quit using Strider is mainly because of Striders stamina. Yes, the Spiral trap easier to do, but it doesn't do as much chip as the Strider/Doom trap. Spiral is just as hard to learn, when to reload, when to teleport, and all that. You also have to be perfect with Spiral because she can't deal quick damage except her throws. And with Magneto, he is hard to use also. You gotta know when to rush. There are so many AAA out there that it makes it pain in the ass for Magneto to rush. And also the fact that Magneto is the only top tier that doesn't rely on chip damage makes him hard to use. With Strider the problem he faces are: Low Stamina, mistake moves. (ie: wall climb, ragnorak instead of ouroborus) Spirals problem are: doing quick damage, maintaining her swords. Magneto's problems are: breaking through a trap to rush, and getting around a good AAA. So Strider is still top tier. well, ur points are valid my friend, but you didn't take into account the third character of the team. yes, i agree that the trap does a lot of chip damage, and IF perfected, i too would be scared of it, but htink about this: who would you be more intimidated by in a match? a team of spiral/cable/sent or S/D/capcom? obviously, it depends on the team ur using, but my point is that the spiral/sent traps has a lot more options to work with. S/D is mainly used w/ an AAA, most commonly capcom. well, what options does this team have to play? usually starting w/ strider on point, using him to buld for the trap. however, strider does too much on this team. he not only serves as battery, but he also serves as main character. meaning that if he dies, a large portion of the team dies as well. with spirl/cable/sent however, spiral is NOT the main character in the eam, cable is. spiral traps while building meter, and as a bonus, chips as well. doing quick damage is nullified by the use of the third partner, mainly cable and his AHVB abilities, while stridoom relys on the battery character doing the damage. in conclusion, strider is not tops IMO, but if an expert uses him, he can still kick major ass. and if you have any problems w/ my explanations, plz don't go and flame me or somehting.. i'll try to back it up, but if i can't, i will admit defeat... Posted by Ouroborus on 08:09:2001 03:33 AM: I would be more intimidated by a Strider/Doom/Capcom. I guess I haven't faced that much of a Strider Doom user before. Spiral/Sentinel/Cable is all too common for me. The last time I faced a Strider/Doom player, he raped me with his team. Well Strider is not always the main fighter. I can have Sentinel with my Strider/Doom and he can be the starter or just use Doom as the starter. Doom with an AAA is not bad. People are saying his time is up but IMO, Doom had become renewed in B5. I can have Doom deal some damage and Photon Array xx Ouroborus to start the trap. And if Strider dies, I still have Doom w/ an AAA. I'm sick of people saying that Doom cant pick up the scraps anymore. He is capable and B5 proved it. Sorry if my post sounds crappy. I need some sleep. Posted by Damage2001 on 08:09:2001 04:25 AM: . Posted by Clockw0rk on 08:09:2001 06:18 AM: quote: Originally posted by StiltMan I think the top tier looks about like this for MvC2: Top tier (in rough order) Storm Sentinel Cable Spiral Doom Blackheart Magneto Sub-top tier (good enough to seriously contend, but not really top tier... no particular order) Cyclops Iron Man Dhalsim Iceman Strider Cyclops is good, but I don't think he's quite good enough on point to be top tier any more. And you've got me right... I do not think Strider is top tier any longer. In the entire final tournament, I saw exactly one person pick Strider at all, less even than Iron Man. It was very early in the tournament, and the player who used him lost. Call it whatever you like, but that's not the kind of confidence that a top tier character should bring out of players. The only player left who really banks on Strider any more as his main character is Clockw0rk, who has never been a dominant player and didn't make it out of the pools at B5. Theoretically, the "perfect trap" seems like it's unstoppable... but in practice, it simply isn't perfect, people are learning more and more where the holes are, and Strider's effectiveness is simply not what it used to be. In addition, his requirement of having Doom behind him is a major chemistry issue, because Strider brings basically nothing to a team when he's no longer on point that Doom can make use of, which means that there becomes a huge dilemma in finding a third character that will help both Strider and Doom well enough to enable them to function. I'm not sure that character exists in this game who blah blah blah blah BLAH BLAH Strider is still top tier. Basing his tiering by my performance at B5 isn't very accurate. If that was the case, you'd have to drop Magneto out of the top tier... no Mags or Strider during the real tournament. There was a reason for that... put 2 and 2 together. Had we played before the tournament, I would have showed you why Strider is top tier. Personally. - Clockw0rk Posted by BshidoHEAT on 08:09:2001 01:49 PM: quote: Originally posted by Smiley who would you be more intimidated by in a match? a team of spiral/cable/sent or S/D/capcom? obviously, it depends on the team ur using, but my point is that the spiral/sent traps has a lot more options to work with. S/D is mainly used w/ an AAA, most commonly capcom. well, what options does this team have to play? usually starting w/ strider on point, using him to buld for the trap. however, strider does too much on this team. he not only serves as battery, but he also serves as main character. meaning that if he dies, a large portion of the team dies as well. with spirl/cable/sent however, spiral is NOT the main character in the eam, cable is. spiral traps while building meter, and as a bonus, chips as well. doing quick damage is nullified by the use of the third partner, mainly cable and his AHVB abilities, while stridoom relys on the battery character doing the damage. I think that Omega Red would best fit Strider/Doom. (Yes team Clockw0rk) Because he is one of the best batteries in the game, and also does really good damage. As well as take damage (I bet you didn't know that he takes better damage than Doom! ) Also Omega can break many traps (he is the anti-WOS). I think Strider w/o Doom is at least a second tier, he has good combos and well he is a decent battery (if you don't use his supers) and also he has one of the few safe tag-ins which is a plus. Posted by darklilith45 on 08:09:2001 05:16 PM: Why is Raiden top tier? I have no problem saying Raidon is top tier but I would like to know. Her is like a copy of Zangief. Posted by g_ngan on 08:09:2001 05:46 PM: i do think strider doom trap is good~ and strider is a top tier if match with doom~ i use BH,strider,Doom~ and i won matches with his~ people using doom,cable,bh and magneto,cable,cammy~ i didn't go to b5 cause it's too far~ but i do think this trap and strider is still a top tier~ Posted by StiltMan on 08:09:2001 06:24 PM: quote: Originally posted by Clockw0rk Strider is still top tier. Basing his tiering by my performance at B5 isn't very accurate. If that was the case, you'd have to drop Magneto out of the top tier... no Mags or Strider during the real tournament. There was a reason for that... put 2 and 2 together. Had we played before the tournament, I would have showed you why Strider is top tier. Personally. Well, I'm making my statement based on what is getting the job done in tournaments. What I keep hearing is that he's got a perfect trap and if he's executed properly he's one of the best in the game. What I keep seeing is that the trap is far less perfect than everyone is always crowing, and that Strider is simply not a key facet of any team that is winning tournaments any more. Yes, Strider's a good character, and when he gets into a groove, somebody is probably going to die. And I've got him down in the "sub-top" with Iron Man because I can say the exact same thing about IM as well... and they're both down there instead of at the top because, in practice, neither of them is able to get into that groove that often. Take B5. You lost to Jon Mar. This is a player with whom I have been fairly evenly matched over the last few months. Head to head over that time period, he's beaten me once, I've beaten him once. In common tournaments, he's been slightly ahead of me, which is why I've got him ranked at #8 in the northwest and myself at #9. He played Cable/Doom/Commando against you. On paper, that team doesn't look like it's got any particular anti-Strider tools on it at all... it's just a fairly simple, solid, stock team. In fact, the game plan of Cable/Doom/Commando isn't that different from Strider/Doom/Commando once you account for the different tools: Cable traps, uses Doom's rocks to chip, controls the vertical space with Commando, and if he dies, Doom/Commando plays the role of the closer. The only real difference is that Cable's doing it with viper beams, gunfire, and grenades, while Strider does it with the animals and orbs... and, oh yeah, Cable's going to be keeping his meter for the AHVB and can trap without needing it. So in a way, this is almost a mirror match with Cable taking Strider's place on a team with much the same general mindset. Jon won that set, for much the reasons I described: Strider has a good deal of trapping tools, but Cable doesn't need to use his meter to trap, and can do nearly as much chipping damage as Strider while he's in control... meanwhile, all that meter has the usual threat potential. Yes, he can't teleport behind you, that's true... but if Cable maintains full screen, Strider can't teleport behind him any more, either, which takes away the threat potential of crossing him up with Doom's rocks. Dropping Doom is no longer safe for you, but it is for him. Throwing animals at that range is dangerous... fast reacting Cables will AHVB that, and even if you try to trap him from there, you could drive a truck through that hole. If you get hit by Doom's rocks and Cable has any decent angle on it at all to go with quick reaction time, that's an AHVB, too. Ultimately, Cable winds up having more tools for Doom/Commando than Strider does... which is kind of weird, but there it is. Plus Cable's mistakes won't hurt as much... Strider's will most likely kill him. He's got potential... and if you wanted, you could easily categorize everyone I put there as "top tier", with two seperate sub-tiers within it. However, the ones I have listed in the "upper top tier" are the ones that can actually have teams built around them that might win tournaments... the rest are good, can be extremely dangerous in some circumstances, but generally aren't going to get enough chances to do their damage to actuall get it done. That's why I've got them there... and, even though I kind of like Strider, I can't help but put him in that category with Iron Man and Dhalsim. Posted by Ouroborus on 08:09:2001 08:38 PM: quote: Originally posted by StiltMan Jon won that set, for much the reasons I described: Strider has a good deal of trapping tools, but Cable doesn't need to use his meter to trap, and can do nearly as much chipping damage as Strider while he's in control... meanwhile, all that meter has the usual threat potential. Yes, he can't teleport behind you, that's true... but if Cable maintains full screen, Strider can't teleport behind him any more, either, which takes away the threat potential of crossing him up with Doom's rocks. Dropping Doom is no longer safe for you, but it is for him. Throwing animals at that range is dangerous... fast reacting Cables will AHVB that, and even if you try to trap him from there, you could drive a truck through that hole. If you get hit by Doom's rocks and Cable has any decent angle on it at all to go with quick reaction time, that's an AHVB, too. Ultimately, Cable winds up having more tools for Doom/Commando than Strider does... which is kind of weird, but there it is. Plus Cable's mistakes won't hurt as much... Strider's will most likely kill him. He's got potential... and if you wanted, you could easily categorize everyone I put there as "top tier", with two seperate sub-tiers within it. However, the ones I have listed in the "upper top tier" are the ones that can actually have teams built around them that might win tournaments... the rest are good, can be extremely dangerous in some circumstances, but generally aren't going to get enough chances to do their damage to actuall get it done. That's why I've got them there... and, even though I kind of like Strider, I can't help but put him in that category with Iron Man and Dhalsim. First of all, Strider doesn't rely on 300% chipping damage to win the round, he can rushdown. And I haven't seen anyone AHVB on reaction to Striders teleport. Unless you are psychic, you cant AHVB strider when he is throwing out birds on cable. The bird stops the AHVB. If Cable is full screen, he is gonna get crossed, while you are up in the air throwing vipers, Strider is gonna teleport behind you and throw you or start the trap from there. You think you have every chance for the AHVB? You dont. Unless you hit the AHVB the same time as the Teleport, you aint gonna hit strider. Furthermore, Strider can teleport out of the AHVB when cable does it to Striders assists. As long as the beam doesnt touch Strider, you can teleport out of it when Cable is going for the second AHVB. Strider can also throw out orbs (in Ouroborus mode) when Cable is doing the AHVB to a blocking Strider or Striders assists. Posted by mopreme on 08:09:2001 09:01 PM: Raiden is not top tier. He is at the bottom of the bottom tier. ChiKyu always picks the absolute worst characters in every game he plays. It's like his gimmick or something. Him winning with Raiden and Sakura in CvS just go to show how much better the Japanese are. He got win streaks with 12 in 3s and used A Mika in the A3 finals. It doesn't mean those characters are good, just ChiKyu. Posted by shin srwilson on 08:09:2001 09:16 PM: Yeah ive noticed it in quite a few Japanese players that they go for the worser characters and make them look good, its interesting to watch. Posted by FluffyXXL on 08:10:2001 04:29 AM: quote: Originally posted by StiltMan Well, I'm making my statement based on what is getting the job done in tournaments. What I keep hearing is that he's got a perfect trap and if he's executed properly he's one of the best in the game. What I keep seeing is that the trap is far less perfect than everyone is always crowing, and that Strider is simply not a key facet of any team that is winning tournaments any more. Yes, Strider's a good character, and when he gets into a groove, somebody is probably going to die. And I've got him down in the "sub-top" with Iron Man because I can say the exact same thing about IM as well... and they're both down there instead of at the top because, in practice, neither of them is able to get into that groove that often. Take B5. You lost to Jon Mar. This is a player with whom I have been fairly evenly matched over the last few months. Head to head over that time period, he's beaten me once, I've beaten him once. In common tournaments, he's been slightly ahead of me, which is why I've got him ranked at #8 in the northwest and myself at #9. He played Cable/Doom/Commando against you. On paper, that team doesn't look like it's got any particular anti-Strider tools on it at all... it's just a fairly simple, solid, stock team. In fact, the game plan of Cable/Doom/Commando isn't that different from Strider/Doom/Commando once you account for the different tools: Cable traps, uses Doom's rocks to chip, controls the vertical space with Commando, and if he dies, Doom/Commando plays the role of the closer. The only real difference is that Cable's doing it with viper beams, gunfire, and grenades, while Strider does it with the animals and orbs... and, oh yeah, Cable's going to be keeping his meter for the AHVB and can trap without needing it. So in a way, this is almost a mirror match with Cable taking Strider's place on a team with much the same general mindset. Jon won that set, for much the reasons I described: Strider has a good deal of trapping tools, but Cable doesn't need to use his meter to trap, and can do nearly as much chipping damage as Strider while he's in control... meanwhile, all that meter has the usual threat potential. Yes, he can't teleport behind you, that's true... but if Cable maintains full screen, Strider can't teleport behind him any more, either, which takes away the threat potential of crossing him up with Doom's rocks. Dropping Doom is no longer safe for you, but it is for him. Throwing animals at that range is dangerous... fast reacting Cables will AHVB that, and even if you try to trap him from there, you could drive a truck through that hole. If you get hit by Doom's rocks and Cable has any decent angle on it at all to go with quick reaction time, that's an AHVB, too. Ultimately, Cable winds up having more tools for Doom/Commando than Strider does... which is kind of weird, but there it is. Plus Cable's mistakes won't hurt as much... Strider's will most likely kill him. He's got potential... and if you wanted, you could easily categorize everyone I put there as "top tier", with two seperate sub-tiers within it. However, the ones I have listed in the "upper top tier" are the ones that can actually have teams built around them that might win tournaments... the rest are good, can be extremely dangerous in some circumstances, but generally aren't going to get enough chances to do their damage to actuall get it done. That's why I've got them there... and, even though I kind of like Strider, I can't help but put him in that category with Iron Man and Dhalsim. If you want to base rank by popularity, then Tron, Commando, Psylocke, and Cammy are all ranked above Cyclops, as I rarely saw Cyclops at B5. Now, I don't really want to open the Cyclops debate, but I'm using that as an example. There are 3-4 things that I think can be attributed to why there was very little Strider/Doom at B5 even though there should have been. 1.) Folsom sticks are notorious for being unreliable. When your margin of error needs to be non-existant in order to play well, bad sticks aren't a good thing. 2.) Strider/Doom is countered fairly well by certain assists. A few charcters can just make sure they start Ken, Cyclops, or Psylocke and not fear Strider/Doom. A lot of teams nowadays will carry these assists stock. You still have to know the matchup and have a character with the proper tools in order to win. 3.) Strider/Doom is old. It is literally a year old and we've discovered so much since then that a lot of people wanted to use the element of suprise rather than play an old staple. There aren't a lot of new Strider/Doom tactics developed since B4. Some people were more interested in proving the superiority of their own teams than proving the superiority of Strider/Doom. 4.) Valle and Ricky don't play it anymore. This isn't a major reason, and I didn't want to include it. But the fact remains that people tend to be followers rather than individuals. The simple fact is Strider/Doom is still a good team. It still counters top characters like Magneto, Blackheart, Cable, Storm, Spiral and Sentinel. Even with the right assists, Strider/Doom still have a big advantage IMO. It can still be a very solid counter team if used correctly. The only weakness I can see is that a lot more people have learned to fight Doom better. Cable 2nd vs Doom 2nd is a very easy match for Cable. Other charcters like Storm and Sentinel also have it pretty easy against Doom. That does not mean that Strider is not a dominant character with Doom assist. It just means that people need to re-think the Strider/Doom/Commando. I think that Strider/Storm/Doom and Strider/Sentinel/Doom would all be good complements along with the old-school Doom/Strider/Blackheart variants. IMO, I don't think the top tier will change at all. I'm not picky about the order, but the original nine have not lost anything and I don't think any other character has risen to that level yet. Iceman and Iron Man are close. The case has been made to take Cyclops out so I won't try to fight that, considering I can't show anyone what I'm talking about. I did get a few people to turn their heads while practicing in my hotel room, as many of them don't realize how good Cyke's DB+Roundhouse throw is. Given time, I think people will eventually come around. The big shake-up to me is the 2nd tier. There are a lot of characters that could be considered 2nd tier now. Here are the ones that I'm going to say should be considered 2nd tier. Iron Man - Infinites 'R' Us. A lot of people are starting to play him more. The one thing that I think keeps him from being any better is that he really doesn't counter any characters outright. He's no better a counter than Magneto would be at least. If you learn the japanese infinite set-up and solo guard breaks, IM gets a lot more dangerous. You no longer need Psylocke assist or any other for that matter. You can play a more counter oriented team. His assists aren't the greatest, but I think there's some variable counter potential with his AAA. Haven't tried it yet, but in theory, it would be possible to counter to AAA and cancel that into Proton Cannon for an assload of damage. I also think Iron Man is a good one on one point. When you don't have to worry about a lot of other things on the screen (especially AAAs) then IM can use the range on his J.Fierce. His launcher has good priority and his J.Jab/SJ.Jab has priority as well. I do agree that he's good, but I also see where he looses a lot of fights for free. He just isn't fast enough to rush everyone in the game down like Magneto can. Iceman - Still good cuz of his selective chipping. He just doesn't have enough to be a good starting character. And coming in against a Cable with meter is a guard break waiting to happen. Plus, I think he still has too hard of a match against Cable unless he comes in with a good lead. He can do some damage however. Normal AC into Fierce-Icebeam DHC really fast to Arctic Attack does a lot of damage and leaves him safe. If Iceman has a lead on you and you don't have an effective chipping engine to use against him, you're going to lose. I just don't think people play up his strengths enough. Tron - If you've never seen a high damage combo done with Tron assist, all you can say is "Ouch." Tron is better than a lot of other assists in general just to combo. A character like Morrigan that is a fast prioirty ho, but can't combo her damaging supers becomes very nasty with Tron. Some other things like Sakura/Tron throw for 60% and the "lazy team" of Blackheart/Tron (C.Short+Tron -> C.Forward, C.Short -> C.Forward). I also think one on one, she's a good point and beats a lot of low tier characters and even some top ones. Ruby Heart - Pillar is too good. She can zone/trap with a lot of assists and has good DHC potential. She doesn't to a lot of damage herself, but i don't think she needs it. She's a good battery for a lot of teams and can hold her own against all but the cream of the crop. Silver Samuri - The more I play him, the better he gets. So much potential to punish assists with lightning super. He never needs to change his mode as that alone is too good. It's fast and has no recovery. It only has a few frames of activation and only two characters that I know of can occasionally knock him out of it. SS can sucker you into wasting so many supers trying to protect your assists. One wrong move anywhere within SJ height and you could eat 50% damage. Leave one assists hanging at the wrong time and it could eat 50-70%. The only characters that rival that are Cable and Sentinel. Megaman - Let's not forget the little blue turd. J.Fierce is still too good and gives a lot of headaches to rushdown. Megaman builds meter and can combo Hyper Megaman in an air combo when needed. He can load the screen with crap (which is never a bad thing) and he has enough priority to rushdown so long as he has the right assists. Cammy - Ok. I admit. She's good. I don't think she's as good as some EC people (who shall remain nameless but if you really want to know it's Pryde=P) claim she is but she does just about everything that Commando can do (cept hit two people at once) and also gives troubles to some top characters like Magneto, Storm, Sentinel, and Doom as an assist. I think she's decent one on one point, but once people learn where to tech hit and roll better, she won't be as dominant as people say. BTW, 100% combo is just comboing into two air throws and then launching into KBA. It's not guaranteed 100% though. Colossus - If you can establish control early enough with him, you can punish an assist with an AC and DHC for the kill. Really easy with something like HailStorm or SS Lightning Super backing him up. I haven't seen anyone play him well enough yet. Plus as an assist he's anti-rushdown. Dhalsim - I almost forgot to put him in and had to edit this message. He's good. I'm not quite sure how good, but i've seen the vids of Viscant playing him vs Wong's Magneto. I always thought Dhalsim had potential to be at least 2nd tier, but I've never seen a good one nor do I have a good Sim. I know he has some good abilities, like Yoga Noogie is a command motion, so he can grab while dashing. Teleport and runaway tactics were always good, just never enough. He also has an almost for free guard break with his Yoga Blast. Yoga Blast XX Yoga Strike, or you can DHC if you really need another character in. Yoga Strike is also fast and you can DHC off of the first frame of it I think. I know you can land a C.Fierce XX Yoga Strike and DHC to fast moves like Proton Cannon and Hail Storm before the opponent has recovered and it will all combo. He can escape guard breaks with teleport, or at least sometimes. Fast 8 way air dash and limbs. It will be interesting to see if anyone else can figure out any good strategies or infinites with Dhalsim. Bison - Viscant plays Bison. It's very mean. Psycho Field is good and leaves you with a lot of time to move around. Psycho Crusher takes out projectiles. Teleport and Flight, both top tier qualities. His combos are nothing to sneeze at as well. They don't do a lot, but they do enough. 'Nuff Said for now. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 08:10:2001 06:16 PM: quote: Originally posted by FluffyXXL The big shake-up to me is the 2nd tier. There are a lot of characters that could be considered 2nd tier now. Here are the ones that I'm going to say should be considered 2nd tier. Iron Man - Infinites 'R' Us. A lot of people are starting to play him more. The one thing that I think keeps him from being any better is that he really doesn't counter any characters outright. He's no better a counter than Magneto would be at least. If you learn the japanese infinite set-up and solo guard breaks, IM gets a lot more dangerous. You no longer need Psylocke assist or any other for that matter. You can play a more counter oriented team. His assists aren't the greatest, but I think there's some variable counter potential with his AAA. Haven't tried it yet, but in theory, it would be possible to counter to AAA and cancel that into Proton Cannon for an assload of damage. I also think Iron Man is a good one on one point. When you don't have to worry about a lot of other things on the screen (especially AAAs) then IM can use the range on his J.Fierce. His launcher has good priority and his J.Jab/SJ.Jab has priority as well. I do agree that he's good, but I also see where he looses a lot of fights for free. He just isn't fast enough to rush everyone in the game down like Magneto can. Iceman - Still good cuz of his selective chipping. He just doesn't have enough to be a good starting character. And coming in against a Cable with meter is a guard break waiting to happen. Plus, I think he still has too hard of a match against Cable unless he comes in with a good lead. He can do some damage however. Normal AC into Fierce-Icebeam DHC really fast to Arctic Attack does a lot of damage and leaves him safe. If Iceman has a lead on you and you don't have an effective chipping engine to use against him, you're going to lose. I just don't think people play up his strengths enough. Tron - If you've never seen a high damage combo done with Tron assist, all you can say is "Ouch." Tron is better than a lot of other assists in general just to combo. A character like Morrigan that is a fast prioirty ho, but can't combo her damaging supers becomes very nasty with Tron. Some other things like Sakura/Tron throw for 60% and the "lazy team" of Blackheart/Tron (C.Short+Tron -> C.Forward, C.Short -> C.Forward). I also think one on one, she's a good point and beats a lot of low tier characters and even some top ones. Ruby Heart - Pillar is too good. She can zone/trap with a lot of assists and has good DHC potential. She doesn't to a lot of damage herself, but i don't think she needs it. She's a good battery for a lot of teams and can hold her own against all but the cream of the crop. Silver Samuri - The more I play him, the better he gets. So much potential to punish assists with lightning super. He never needs to change his mode as that alone is too good. It's fast and has no recovery. It only has a few frames of activation and only two characters that I know of can occasionally knock him out of it. SS can sucker you into wasting so many supers trying to protect your assists. One wrong move anywhere within SJ height and you could eat 50% damage. Leave one assists hanging at the wrong time and it could eat 50-70%. The only characters that rival that are Cable and Sentinel. Megaman - Let's not forget the little blue turd. J.Fierce is still too good and gives a lot of headaches to rushdown. Megaman builds meter and can combo Hyper Megaman in an air combo when needed. He can load the screen with crap (which is never a bad thing) and he has enough priority to rushdown so long as he has the right assists. Cammy - Ok. I admit. She's good. I don't think she's as good as some EC people (who shall remain nameless but if you really want to know it's Pryde=P) claim she is but she does just about everything that Commando can do (cept hit two people at once) and also gives troubles to some top characters like Magneto, Storm, Sentinel, and Doom as an assist. I think she's decent one on one point, but once people learn where to tech hit and roll better, she won't be as dominant as people say. BTW, 100% combo is just comboing into two air throws and then launching into KBA. It's not guaranteed 100% though. Colossus - If you can establish control early enough with him, you can punish an assist with an AC and DHC for the kill. Really easy with something like HailStorm or SS Lightning Super backing him up. I haven't seen anyone play him well enough yet. Plus as an assist he's anti-rushdown. Dhalsim - I almost forgot to put him in and had to edit this message. He's good. I'm not quite sure how good, but i've seen the vids of Viscant playing him vs Wong's Magneto. I always thought Dhalsim had potential to be at least 2nd tier, but I've never seen a good one nor do I have a good Sim. I know he has some good abilities, like Yoga Noogie is a command motion, so he can grab while dashing. Teleport and runaway tactics were always good, just never enough. He also has an almost for free guard break with his Yoga Blast. Yoga Blast XX Yoga Strike, or you can DHC if you really need another character in. Yoga Strike is also fast and you can DHC off of the first frame of it I think. I know you can land a C.Fierce XX Yoga Strike and DHC to fast moves like Proton Cannon and Hail Storm before the opponent has recovered and it will all combo. He can escape guard breaks with teleport, or at least sometimes. Fast 8 way air dash and limbs. It will be interesting to see if anyone else can figure out any good strategies or infinites with Dhalsim. Bison - Viscant plays Bison. It's very mean. Psycho Field is good and leaves you with a lot of time to move around. Psycho Crusher takes out projectiles. Teleport and Flight, both top tier qualities. His combos do are nothing to sneeze at as well. They don't to a lot, but they do enough. 'Nuff Said for now. Ok, Silver, Tron, Ruby, and MegaMan? Why is there no Omega Red? He can beat all of them! With his burrowing coils, and canceled strikes. Not to mention that he's a better battery than any of those charaters. (even the ones I didn't point out) And, no Rogue? She's a 2nd tier, and if your going to include IM, you might as well include War Machine too. Posted by FluffyXXL on 08:10:2001 06:36 PM: quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT Ok, Silver, Tron, Ruby, and MegaMan? Why is there no Omega Red? He can beat all of them! With his burrowing coils, and canceled strikes. Not to mention that he's a better battery than any of those charaters. (even the ones I didn't point out) Everyone says Omega Red is good, but absolutley no one plays him anymore. I think that a lot of basic tactics have just evolved beyond him. Stuff like counter into AHVB just kill him. He also can't stop things like Sentinel assist. The majority of AAAs can be used to beat him fairly easy. He doesn't have the added bonus of being able to punish helpers (IMO, this is a very important trait for 2nd tier) and he his combos aren't very damaging unless you're in the corner. His assists aren't as useful/damaging as others. He also looses pretty bad to rushdown. quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT And, no Rogue? She's a 2nd tier, and if your going to include IM, you might as well include War Machine too. OMG, somebody had to go there. Since everyone is pretty much already in agreement that Rogue isn't 2nd tier, let me ask you why you think she is. Posted by Bezerka on 08:11:2001 09:32 AM: So what was so good about the Sakura that the guy used? Every tier list of CvS i've seen puts her at the botton of the ratio 1's. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 08:11:2001 09:31 PM: quote: Originally posted by FluffyXXL Everyone says Omega Red is good, but absolutley no one plays him anymore. I think that a lot of basic tactics have just evolved beyond him. Stuff like counter into AHVB just kill him. He also can't stop things like Sentinel assist. The majority of AAAs can be used to beat him fairly easy. He doesn't have the added bonus of being able to punish helpers (IMO, this is a very important trait for 2nd tier) and he his combos aren't very damaging unless you're in the corner. His assists aren't as useful/damaging as others. He also looses pretty bad to rushdown. OMG, somebody had to go there. Since everyone is pretty much already in agreement that Rogue isn't 2nd tier, let me ask you why you think she is. I am not a big Rogue user, but I'll ask any way why isn't she 2nd tier? I've beaten Cables before, and I've gotten around the AHVB, (but lets say it took some pratice.) I've beaten Storms, Spirals, Sentinals and Magnetos, Bh's. (But it's not an easy fight) Also, I don't know why the Majority of AAA's can beat Omega Red, but CAN'T beat Tron or any of the other second tiers. Does he have some spacific weakness to Cammy that Ruby Heart doesn't have? And sentinals assist, well I can get past that, if Omega couldn't it wouldn't be so easy for him to break the WOS. And he doesn't loose to rushdown, if you've seen Clock's Omega vs Image's Magnus, he keeps him away pretty good (although he fucks up majorly) I've beaten Magento's before too, so rushdown he doesn't MAJORLY die. Talking about rushdown, I don't think Silver Samuri has a chance against a good Magnus rushdown, nor does Iceman, or Ruby Heart. The way I punish helpers with OR, is the Omega Destroyer, and since it's not safe against most top tiers, I'll just have too cancel to another person. And about Silver Samuri again, yea he can punish assist, but OR can stop him from that, because he can hit anywhere on the screen almost instantly. (Burrowing coils) So lets say, Silver Sam has my Doom in the lighting, I can knock Silver out of the lightning with my burrowing coils if you time it right, and also follow up with a strike. Also, talking about assist, yeah OR doesn't have good assist, but some of the people on your list don't have the greatest assist either. But lets look at the other 2nd tier assist... The only ones worth mentioning are Irons, and Ice'es beam, Tron's Projectile, Cammy's AAA, and Colossus'es Dash. Another ones are too slow, or too weak, or both. I dunno about you, but I don't know if you've played any good Omega Red's with those people.. PS-I know i've been trying to defend Omega, but, yes he does have his weaknesses, so not being able to do alot of damage is one of them, others are, not being able to capitalize on peoples mistakes, and not being to combo any of his supers. Posted by gamedata on 08:12:2001 09:26 AM: quote: Originally posted by Clockw0rk Strider is still top tier. Basing his tiering by my performance at B5 isn't very accurate. If that was the case, you'd have to drop Magneto out of the top tier... no Mags or Strider during the real tournament. There was a reason for that... put 2 and 2 together. Had we played before the tournament, I would have showed you why Strider is top tier. Personally. - Clockw0rk Ok, you have a bad day at B5. Still, you never placed top 5 at SHGL., The only one who use to do this with strider was valle, and he left the team like what, 6 months ago? maybe it can be a counter, but so can iceman. Posted by BlackShinobi on 08:12:2001 09:40 AM: quote: Originally posted by mopreme Him winning with Raiden and Sakura in CvS just go to show how much better the Japanese are. He got win streaks with 12 in 3s and used A Mika in the A3 finals. It doesn't mean those characters are good, just ChiKyu. thats just how it is around here and nothing you say is going to change it Typical SRK sydrome thought pattern If that character won a tournament then that must be the best character Sure I'll give whoever used it some credit but it had to be the character they were using. I think I'll use that character until someone else wins a tournament or until I lose enough to regain my former opinion about this character. Did you notice how Magneto went from god to trash after B5 Its just sad. THINK OUTSIDE SIDE OF THE FREAKIN BOX PEOPLE Posted by Ouroborus on 08:12:2001 09:55 AM: quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi thats just how it is around here and nothing you say is going to change it Typical SRK sydrome thought pattern If that character won a tournament then that must be the best character Sure I'll give whoever used it some credit but it had to be the character they were using. I think I'll use that character until someone else wins a tournament or until I lose enough to regain my former opinion about this character. Did you notice how Magneto went from god to trash after B5 Its just sad. THINK OUTSIDE SIDE OF THE FREAKIN BOX PEOPLE Word. Strider is still top tier! Posted by Battousai on 08:12:2001 03:16 PM: quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi thats just how it is around here and nothing you say is going to change it Typical SRK sydrome thought pattern If that character won a tournament then that must be the best character Sure I'll give whoever used it some credit but it had to be the character they were using. I think I'll use that character until someone else wins a tournament or until I lose enough to regain my former opinion about this character. Did you notice how Magneto went from god to trash after B5 Its just sad. THINK OUTSIDE SIDE OF THE FREAKIN BOX PEOPLE I still think that Magnus is god... even though i can't use him... he is still madd phat!!! Posted by FluffyXXL on 08:13:2001 07:04 AM: quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT I am not a big Rogue user, but I'll ask any way why isn't she 2nd tier? I've beaten Cables before, and I've gotten around the AHVB, (but lets say it took some pratice.) I've beaten Storms, Spirals, Sentinals and Magnetos, Bh's. (But it's not an easy fight) Also, I don't know why the Majority of AAA's can beat Omega Red, but CAN'T beat Tron or any of the other second tiers. Does he have some spacific weakness to Cammy that Ruby Heart doesn't have? And sentinals assist, well I can get past that, if Omega couldn't it wouldn't be so easy for him to break the WOS. And he doesn't loose to rushdown, if you've seen Clock's Omega vs Image's Magnus, he keeps him away pretty good (although he fucks up majorly) I've beaten Magento's before too, so rushdown he doesn't MAJORLY die. Talking about rushdown, I don't think Silver Samuri has a chance against a good Magnus rushdown, nor does Iceman, or Ruby Heart. The way I punish helpers with OR, is the Omega Destroyer, and since it's not safe against most top tiers, I'll just have too cancel to another person. And about Silver Samuri again, yea he can punish assist, but OR can stop him from that, because he can hit anywhere on the screen almost instantly. (Burrowing coils) So lets say, Silver Sam has my Doom in the lighting, I can knock Silver out of the lightning with my burrowing coils if you time it right, and also follow up with a strike. Also, talking about assist, yeah OR doesn't have good assist, but some of the people on your list don't have the greatest assist either. But lets look at the other 2nd tier assist... The only ones worth mentioning are Irons, and Ice'es beam, Tron's Projectile, Cammy's AAA, and Colossus'es Dash. Another ones are too slow, or too weak, or both. I dunno about you, but I don't know if you've played any good Omega Red's with those people.. PS-I know i've been trying to defend Omega, but, yes he does have his weaknesses, so not being able to do alot of damage is one of them, others are, not being able to capitalize on peoples mistakes, and not being to combo any of his supers. Rogue: I asked you why you thought she was 2nd tier and you responded with "I've beaten Cables". If you didn't notice, I was asking for specifics as to why you thought she was 2nd tier, not if you can beat Cables with her. You said you can beat Storm, Spiral, Sentinel, Blackheart, and Magneto, so why not enlighten us as to how this is done? That's what I was looking for. Omega Red: You touched on a lot. To start with, you asked why AAAs beat OR. It's fairly simple. You can't C.Roundhouse all day. You have to do something else, cuz if you opponent jumps or wave dashes, then you miss. If your opponent SJs, he usually has a decent way to get to OR. That's what makes characters top is that they can manuoevre well. Eventually, OR has to call his assists, and that's when they can get punished. AAAs also beat out pretty much all of OR's attacks. As long as you don't let OR get the early advantage and work you over, you don't loose. It's a lot like fighting against Magneto. At first, it can seem overwhelming, but after a while it gets more familiar and people know when and where the mistakes can happen. The difference is that Magneto has a triangle jump, can punish helpers on all but a couple characters, and he has mix-up combos that can lead to really easy kills really fast. Silver Samuri: You talked about a few things with him. The main point here is that OR can beat SS. While that may or may not be true (I lean more towards the not side, but I'm not experienced enough at this matchup to know for sure at the moment), some of your reasonings aren't true IMO. You said he can get out of WOS using C.Fierce. That is not an entire justification for Omega Red beating Spiral/Sentinel. He'd also have to get out of the S.Fierce trap and be able to prevent Spiral from getting knives and starting a trap, both of which aren't possible with any character. Your rationale for that is the same as with people who say that Sentinel C.Fierce stops Spiral traps. Good Spirals know about that and work around it. Most of the time, it's all a matter of getting it started, and good Spirals definitely can get it going. As for other things you mentioned, I doubt it's possible to consistently C.Fierce Silver Samuri when he's doing the lightning super. You would have to be full screen, and you have to keep in mind that the lightning super does wave at certain points which includes the ground at full screen. The only way to get out would be to jump into the little area that is not covered by lightning super and do a move that will go through the Lightning and hit SS. Very few characters are able to do this consistently. The only ones I can think of at the moment are Cable, Storm, Ryu and possibly Cyclops and Cammy. to be editted later Posted by Colin on 08:13:2001 09:15 AM: You gotta come out of retirement so I can show you how you are incorrect. I'll play you with Omega Red, he's actually one of my better characters. OR is extremely good against spiral and sentinel. OR/Sent/BH, OR/Strider/Doom, and OR/Storm/AAA are all very good teams. OR with Doom, Strider, BH, Storm assists-all very useful for him. He can battery better than anyone except possibly Spiral. He just loses for free to Cable(AHVB will counter burrow coils, omega strikes, coils, everything) and Storm(she can control the ground better than Omega). If it wasn't for those two I'd make him upper second tier. As is I think he's right below IM and Dhaly and right above Iceman and Ruby Heart. But Cable and Storm are not good characters to lose for free to since everybody has one or the other on their team it seems. OR flat out beats Spiral, Sentinel, BH, and Magneto IMO. One day, stand up with Omega and press fierce. See how that attack reaches 3/4 of the way across the screen? There is your helper punish. Just do that into an omega strike. Do that 3 or 4 times and the assist is GONE. Main character will have a hard time punishing if you are fast and omega strike towards them if they SJ and airdash to get at you and punish you. Unless they are cable or storm, the strike will stuff anything they try. Of course I might be wrong but IMO OR is quite good, especially as a counter to Spiral/Sent. OR/Storm/Capcom is my "kill spiral/cable/sentinel" team. Just waste Spiral with OR, then safe tag using hail to storm and take the fight home against cable/sent with Storm/Capcom. -Colin Wants to bring Fluffy SeXXL out of retirement "Didn't that time in the hotel mean anything to you??? *cries*" Posted by MarkyMark on 08:13:2001 12:05 PM: Anyone who's ever paid attention to me should know that I'm one of the bigger Strider/Doom fanatics on these boards. I've been using various Strider/Doom teams for the past year, but never got any real results... Just kept telling myself, "Need more practice, need a better team, need to get to the arcade more than once every other month..." I practiced, and played with a few teams (Strider/Doom/CapCom, Strider/Doom/Blackheart, Strider/Cable/Doom, Storm/Strider/Doom, and most recently, Magneto/Strider/Doom). Of those teams, I think Strider/Doom/CapCom is the weakest, though it's no doubt the most popular. Only until I stopped with the whole Strider/Doom/AAA thing did I ever win any fights consistently (or at least semi-consistently - let's be honest, I'm not that good). ...But alas, B5 was the nail in the coffin for Strider. I think if you want to base your tiers on theoretical match-ups and execution, you could easily consider Strider one of the top - in my theoretical top tier, I still have Strider as #2. But in terms of a realistic top tier, in which characters are ranked based on effectiveness in real matches, Strider doesn't seem to fit in anymore. Well, maybe not yet is a better way to put it... I still think Strider has what it takes to tango with anyone in the "no duh" top tier, but I don't think it's getting done with any of the current teams being used, and I don't think it ever will be... At least not like Spiral/Sentinel, or Cable/CapCom get it done. I know Stilts made comments like this before, and I know I already commented on those comments, but an up-to-date Strider/Doom team needs to have a third character that works very will with Doom assist, and not a third wheel that mainly aids Strider (although I never understood the great importance of CapCom/Blackheart in Strider/Doom teams other than a counter to Storm... *shrugs*). I think Stilts' top tier and sub-top tiers are pretty solid, and to a degree reflect my own beliefs... Theoretically, Strider and Dhalsim make great characters... Maybe one day they'll be dominators if someone bothers to crack them like they can be. But at the moment, if I'm about to fight a Strider/Doom player, I'll sweat a lot less than if I were to fight a Magneto/AAA. Theoretical top tier 1) Sentinel 2) Strider 3) Magneto 4) Spiral 5) Storm 6) Cable 7) Iron Man 8) Doom 9) Dhalsim 10) Blackheart Realistic top tier 1) Sentinel 2) Storm 3) Spiral 4) Magneto 5) Cable 6) Doom 7) Blackheart Posted by BarrelO on 08:13:2001 12:28 PM: For the record, Clockw0rk doesn't use Strider/Doom/Commando. His team is Strider/Sentinel/Doom. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 08:13:2001 01:18 PM: quote: Originally posted by FluffyXXL Rogue: I asked you why you thought she was 2nd tier and you responded with "I've beaten Cables". If you didn't notice, I was asking for specifics as to why you thought she was 2nd tier, not if you can beat Cables with her. You said you can beat Storm, Spiral, Sentinel, Blackheart, and Magneto, so why not enlighten us as to how this is done? That's what I was looking for. Omega Red: You touched on a lot. To start with, you asked why AAAs beat OR. It's fairly simple. You can't C.Roundhouse all day. You have to do something else, cuz if you opponent jumps or wave dashes, then you miss. If your opponent SJs, he usually has a decent way to get to OR. That's what makes characters top is that they can manuoevre well. Eventually, OR has to call his assists, and that's when they can get punished. AAAs also beat out pretty much all of OR's attacks. As long as you don't let OR get the early advantage and work you over, you don't loose. It's a lot like fighting against Magneto. At first, it can seem overwhelming, but after a while it gets more familiar and people know when and where the mistakes can happen. The difference is that Magneto has a triangle jump, can punish helpers on all but a couple characters, and he has mix-up combos that can lead to really easy kills really fast. Silver Samuri: You talked about a few things with him. The main point here is that OR can beat SS. While that may or may not be true (I lean more towards the not side, but I'm not experienced enough at this matchup to know for sure at the moment), some of your reasonings aren't true IMO. You said he can get out of WOS using C.Fierce. That is not an entire justification for Omega Red beating Spiral/Sentinel. He'd also have to get out of the S.Fierce trap and be able to prevent Spiral from getting knives and starting a trap, both of which aren't possible with any character. Your rationale for that is the same as with people who say that Sentinel C.Fierce stops Spiral traps. Good Spirals know about that and work around it. Most of the time, it's all a matter of getting it started, and good Spirals definitely can get it going. As for other things you mentioned, I doubt it's possible to consistently C.Fierce Silver Samuri when he's doing the lightning super. You would have to be full screen, and you have to keep in mind that the lightning super does wave at certain points which includes the ground at full screen. The only way to get out would be to jump into the little area that is not covered by lightning super and do a move that will go through the Lightning and hit SS. Very few characters are able to do this consistently. The only ones I can think of at the moment are Cable, Storm, Ryu and possibly Cyclops and Cammy. to be editted later About Rogue, I didn't mean I've beat Cables with her, I ment with OR. Sorry for the confusion. I can't C.Roundhouse all day? Yes I've done that many times. Works wonders on Megaman, and anyone who tries to trap OR in the corner. (outside of Sent/BH) I seriously don't know if you've played with OR, or have seen a good OR in combat, but almost noone ever use the C.Fierce, but always use the C.Roudhouse. (which is the burrowing coils that could hit anywhere) Also if they do try to jump or wavedash, that's when I Strike them, and an Omega Strike is as fast as a venom fang, and can recover just as fast, and also it has great range. (And once again, OR can strike anywhere on the screen, so if they do wavedash they'll most likely get hit) It's like instantly covering half of the screen, and cancel back quickly. What is Spiral going to do against consistent C.Roundhouses? Teleport over my head? If that is the case, just vertial strike. If she jumps, she is going to have to come down, just build meter when she SJ's. If she teleports where OR doesn't know? Well, just Omega Destroyer and i'll cover the whole screen. There will be a time where the Lightning will not hit the corner, and that is the time to do the burrowing coils, and that stops Silvers game. Also, Silver Samuri gets killed by keep-away, if anyone has a decent trap like MM/BH, Silver Samuri is dead. He probably has the least highest sj in the game, no air manuevers, slow dash, and slow moves, and only the Ice enhance is good enough to waste a super on. Well not to only single out SS, I've got to ask, how can Tron, Ruby, and other people on your list, punish assist? I know Ironman can proton cannon an assist, Dhalsim's normal moves can keep the point assist in block, while he hits the assist, SS we've already gone over, but other people I doubt they have anything that can hit an assist and leave the point in block stun, and leave them SAFE. Colin, Cable, does beat OR, but he doesn't own him for free, like I've said, I've beat Cables before, and in no way was it easy. Important things are, to look where you can get close to him, OR can beat Cable in close combat. If he super jumps, strike over to the other side (strikes are faster than his regular dash) if you block a ground viperbeam, he'll be open for a C.HK xx Strike, and cancel d+k so your close to him. Watch out for his assist too, you can't Omega Destroyer them, but you can standing fierce them like you've said. Storm doesn't own OR for free, BUT Storm with levels is VERY deadly against OR. Storm can't run from OR too much, or she'll be cought with a coil (if she isn't careful), she can't do vertical typhoon, because she'll be open for Carbinum Smasher, or coil, or a combo into a coil. With LVL's Storm can chip you to death, with horizontial typhoon xx hail storm. It's not safe enough to C.HK her horizontail typhoons. If ya'll need more anti-top tier strats with OR, just ask. But don't ask about how to beat team watts with OR, (BH, Sent, CapCom) BH is probably the best counter to OR. Posted by FluffyXXL on 08:13:2001 06:57 PM: quote: Originally posted by Colin You gotta come out of retirement so I can show you how you are incorrect. I'll play you with Omega Red, he's actually one of my better characters. OR is extremely good against spiral and sentinel. OR/Sent/BH, OR/Strider/Doom, and OR/Storm/AAA are all very good teams. OR with Doom, Strider, BH, Storm assists-all very useful for him. He can battery better than anyone except possibly Spiral. He just loses for free to Cable(AHVB will counter burrow coils, omega strikes, coils, everything) and Storm(she can control the ground better than Omega). If it wasn't for those two I'd make him upper second tier. As is I think he's right below IM and Dhaly and right above Iceman and Ruby Heart. But Cable and Storm are not good characters to lose for free to since everybody has one or the other on their team it seems. OR flat out beats Spiral, Sentinel, BH, and Magneto IMO. One day, stand up with Omega and press fierce. See how that attack reaches 3/4 of the way across the screen? There is your helper punish. Just do that into an omega strike. Do that 3 or 4 times and the assist is GONE. Main character will have a hard time punishing if you are fast and omega strike towards them if they SJ and airdash to get at you and punish you. Unless they are cable or storm, the strike will stuff anything they try. Of course I might be wrong but IMO OR is quite good, especially as a counter to Spiral/Sent. OR/Storm/Capcom is my "kill spiral/cable/sentinel" team. Just waste Spiral with OR, then safe tag using hail to storm and take the fight home against cable/sent with Storm/Capcom. -Colin Wants to bring Fluffy SeXXL out of retirement "Didn't that time in the hotel mean anything to you??? *cries*" Lol. The time at the hotel was special, but I have to move on now. I will always remember that time and it will be with me forever.:P Seriously though, I'm only retiring from tourneys. I'll still play, just not as often for a while. I have to see what's wrong with my hand first. It may just need time to heal. Anyway, as for OR, I do know where you're coming from. Me and Micah both used to think the same things as you do. Then (and this was the point I was trying to make in my previous post) tactics just evolved beyond him. Stuff like Spiral quick dropping at SJ height and calling assists to cover her knife summons. Then, more stuff like the S.Fierce trap or CAHVB with Cable or team watts all came about. It just kept getting rougher and rougher for OR to win. And players just got smarter. If OR can C.Roundhouse WOS, people would wait for the C.Roundhouse XX Omega Strike before trying to throw swords. Cable players play use Psylocke assist more than Cyclops now because in general she is much better against close-in rushdown than Cyclops assist. Sentinel players using Unfly tactics. There's lots of top tier tactics and even now some more 2nd and 3rd tier tactics that are catching on and becoming better. OR isn't really developing anything new or different. I'll try to get down to sunnyvale tomorrow and show you what I'm talking about. Posted by FluffyXXL on 08:13:2001 08:04 PM: quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT About Rogue, I didn't mean I've beat Cables with her, I ment with OR. Sorry for the confusion. I can't C.Roundhouse all day? Yes I've done that many times. Works wonders on Megaman, and anyone who tries to trap OR in the corner. (outside of Sent/BH) I seriously don't know if you've played with OR, or have seen a good OR in combat, but almost noone ever use the C.Fierce, but always use the C.Roudhouse. (which is the burrowing coils that could hit anywhere) Also if they do try to jump or wavedash, that's when I Strike them, and an Omega Strike is as fast as a venom fang, and can recover just as fast, and also it has great range. (And once again, OR can strike anywhere on the screen, so if they do wavedash they'll most likely get hit) It's like instantly covering half of the screen, and cancel back quickly. What is Spiral going to do against consistent C.Roundhouses? Teleport over my head? If that is the case, just vertial strike. If she jumps, she is going to have to come down, just build meter when she SJ's. If she teleports where OR doesn't know? Well, just Omega Destroyer and i'll cover the whole screen. Simple flowchart thinking like that is all nice and good until someone does something outside it. Spiral SJs once and gets knives. Comes down and waits. What does OR do at this point that won't result in him blocking either Sentinel assist or a well placed AAA? Because whenever he blocks, he now has to contend with the possibility of being trapped. quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT There will be a time where the Lightning will not hit the corner, and that is the time to do the burrowing coils, and that stops Silvers game. Also, Silver Samuri gets killed by keep-away, if anyone has a decent trap like MM/BH, Silver Samuri is dead. He probably has the least highest sj in the game, no air manuevers, slow dash, and slow moves, and only the Ice enhance is good enough to waste a super on. Well, if you want SS strats, here you go. First off, I play him primarily with Spiral because of the great deal of control and chip offered by her Projectile assist. The teams I'm using now are Spiral/G-Samuri/Sentinel or Spiral/A-Samuri/Psylocke. Second, I don't play him first normally. Most characters that beat him loose pretty good to Spiral. Spiral/A-Samuri has a S.Fierce trap like Spiral/Sent but she can work throws into much easier than with Sent assist. Spiral can also safe switch into Samuri just like she can with other characters. Now, when Samuri gets in, the main strategy is to rush down and use his Shurikens and Spiral Projectile Assist to do lots of chip and bait out an AAA so Samuri can fry it with Lightning Super. It's harder to work on specific assists and specific point characters. It's harder to do on Cable or Storm with Psylocke assist and it's harder to do against Sent/BH. You can always squeeze off a lightning super to put someone in block stun. When you get someone into a corner, it's GGPO. Samuri has a pretty impressive corner game. Chip tactics become realistic for massive kills and he can cover any spots with lightning supers which are instant recovery and can set up throws at the right time or just more chip tactics. quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT Well not to only single out SS, I've got to ask, how can Tron, Ruby, and other people on your list, punish assist? I know Ironman can proton cannon an assist, Dhalsim's normal moves can keep the point assist in block, while he hits the assist, SS we've already gone over, but other people I doubt they have anything that can hit an assist and leave the point in block stun, and leave them SAFE. Tron doesn't need to punish assists on point. She does it very well as an assist. When she is in on point, she does much better focusing on a point than on an assist. She has a lot of tactics especially with her J/SJ.Fierce that can cross-up and mix-up to lead to combos. Ruby has her pillar move, which once activated allows her to move around and forms a barrier. It hits assists or it can be used to keep a point from moving. If she needs to punish an assist (or is close enough to kill it) she can use her punch super and DHC to the next character for the kill. Again, she doesn't need to focus on an assist. Any others? Posted by BshidoHEAT on 08:14:2001 12:37 AM: quote: Simple flowchart thinking like that is all nice and good until someone does something outside it. Spiral SJs once and gets knives. Comes down and waits. What does OR do at this point that won't result in him blocking either Sentinel assist or a well placed AAA? Because whenever he blocks, he now has to contend with the possibility of being trapped. And I don't have an AAA to contend with Spiral's AAA? That's not very fair. Nor realistic If Spiral just turtles, and sends out sentinals assist, I can send my assist to take the hits then hit Sent with C.HK xx Strike xx cancel back. And start again.... quote: Well, if you want SS strats, here you go. First off, I play him primarily with Spiral because of the great deal of control and chip offered by her Projectile assist. The teams I'm using now are Spiral/G-Samuri/Sentinel or Spiral/A-Samuri/Psylocke. Second, I don't play him first normally. Most characters that beat him loose pretty good to Spiral. Spiral/A-Samuri has a S.Fierce trap like Spiral/Sent but she can work throws into much easier than with Sent assist. Spiral can also safe switch into Samuri just like she can with other characters. Now, when Samuri gets in, the main strategy is to rush down and use his Shurikens and Spiral Projectile Assist to do lots of chip and bait out an AAA so Samuri can fry it with Lightning Super. It's harder to work on specific assists and specific point characters. It's harder to do on Cable or Storm with Psylocke assist and it's harder to do against Sent/BH. You can always squeeze off a lightning super to put someone in block stun. When you get someone into a corner, it's GGPO. Samuri has a pretty impressive corner game. Chip tactics become realistic for massive kills and he can cover any spots with lightning supers which are instant recovery and can set up throws at the right time or just more chip tactics. Once again, that team dies to MAJOR rush down, there is no AAA to protect you from getting dashed into or jumped over. SS can't rush down, he's just too slow for it. Assist can help him, but someone can just throw him and advoid the assist. GTG I'll post something later Posted by FluffyXXL on 08:14:2001 01:48 AM: quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT And I don't have an AAA to contend with Spiral's AAA? That's not very fair. Nor realistic If Spiral just turtles, and sends out sentinals assist, I can send my assist to take the hits then hit Sent with C.HK xx Strike xx cancel back. And start again.... And then I get to throw knives at you. You get trapped. I build meter. quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT Once again, that team dies to MAJOR rush down, there is no AAA to protect you from getting dashed into or jumped over. SS can't rush down, he's just too slow for it. Assist can help him, but someone can just throw him and advoid the assist. GTG I'll post something later Believe whatever you want. Just about any character can rushdown if you have the right assist and Spiral defintely has the right assist. The only rushdown characters that beat SS in reality are Magneto and Strider/Doom. I would never attempt to fight Strider/Doom with a Spiral based team anyway. That's just not a good idea. Every team has a weakness. Part of the strength of SS is that every team is always threatened by his lightning super. 50%+ damage almost instantly is nothing to mock. Even something like Strider/Doom has to be careful if Doom ends up behind Samuri and Strider doesn't immediately attack SS as soon as Doom is done making him block. But, believe what you want. It doesn't seem like my arguements are sinking through. Or you just don't understand some of the strategies that I'm talking about. Either way, I'm too lazy to spell it all out for you right now. Posted by Hoe Muffin on 08:14:2001 02:38 AM: Strider/Doom isn't conducive to tbe psyche in long tourney plays, heck, I can't even imagine the amount of focus you'd need to use that team in B5 or another big tourney where you play a lot of games in quick succesion. I get headaches and mess up when I play casually for goodness' sakes. But then again, that's probably due more to my suckiness then the team itself, but that's another story. Here's an interesting note: I notice that those who were claiming that the Japanese would rewrite the MvC2 top tier have fallen strangely silent... as if the wheels had fallen off the bandwagon or something. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 08:14:2001 02:13 PM: quote: Originally posted by FluffyXXL And then I get to throw knives at you. You get trapped. I build meter. Believe whatever you want. Just about any character can rushdown if you have the right assist and Spiral defintely has the right assist. The only rushdown characters that beat SS in reality are Magneto and Strider/Doom. I would never attempt to fight Strider/Doom with a Spiral based team anyway. That's just not a good idea. Every team has a weakness. Part of the strength of SS is that every team is always threatened by his lightning super. 50%+ damage almost instantly is nothing to mock. Even something like Strider/Doom has to be careful if Doom ends up behind Samuri and Strider doesn't immediately attack SS as soon as Doom is done making him block. But, believe what you want. It doesn't seem like my arguements are sinking through. Or you just don't understand some of the strategies that I'm talking about. Either way, I'm too lazy to spell it all out for you right now. Not every charater can rush down, you can try, but if you don't have air mobility, (air dash or double jump) good jump-ins, your going to need more than Spirals assist. So tell me, how can SS advoid CapCom or Cammy? He can't jump them, he can't dash. The only thing he can do is Lightning super, and that is his HOLE GAME, assist killing, so when someone takes that away, he's basically worthless, and all he has left is a chipping game, which isn't all that good if you have the right assist. You mentioned the only charaters that could rush down SS is Mags, Strider/Doom, well, I think Storm could do the same thing IF she wanted too, and so can Cammy. And what you don't seem to understand is, the WOS has HOLES in it, that makes it easy to hit Spiral, my assist can either take a hit for me and then I can hit Spiral, and or I can take a hit for my assist and they can hit her. I've faced the WOS before, people have tried MANY strats against my team (with a Spiral based team), and IT DOESN'T WORK. One way or another OR can get that C.HK in and Spiral gets worked the rest of the time she's in there. Maybe it's me, not seeing a good enough Spiral, or its you who hasnt' seen a good enough OR. Well, since I had to go somewhere by suprise yesterday, i'll comment on your post before this one. quote: Tron doesn't need to punish assists on point. She does it very well as an assist. When she is in on point, she does much better focusing on a point than on an assist. She has a lot of tactics especially with her J/SJ.Fierce that can cross-up and mix-up to lead to combos. Ruby has her pillar move, which once activated allows her to move around and forms a barrier. It hits assists or it can be used to keep a point from moving. If she needs to punish an assist (or is close enough to kill it) she can use her punch super and DHC to the next character for the kill. Again, she doesn't need to focus on an assist. Trons assist does great damage, but usually the way I've seen it used is for a cross up helper. I haven't seen it used for assist killing. As for Tron on point, I haven't seen a good one yet, and I would rather leave that out. Ruby on the other hand, I've seen decent ones, but not good ones. I've seen that C.HK xx Pillar, but nothing else, I haven't seen anyone try to assist kill with that though. But I strongly dissagree with assist killing with her her fire ball super. It doesn't cover the whole screen, like the Hair Storm, HSF, and AHVB. And since she is using her body, some moves can knock her out of it, (particullarly beam attacks) if you have the assist and the point charater, the point charater can push block and the assist will sometimes get away. quote: But, believe what you want. It doesn't seem like my arguements are sinking through. Or you just don't understand some of the strategies that I'm talking about. Either way, I'm too lazy to spell it all out for you right now. Don't say that I don't know what Spiral strategies your talking about, because, someone probably already tried it on me. Posted by FluffyXXL on 08:14:2001 07:34 PM: quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT Not every charater can rush down, you can try, but if you don't have air mobility, (air dash or double jump) good jump-ins, your going to need more than Spirals assist. So tell me, how can SS advoid CapCom or Cammy? He can't jump them, he can't dash. The only thing he can do is Lightning super, and that is his HOLE GAME, assist killing, so when someone takes that away, he's basically worthless, and all he has left is a chipping game, which isn't all that good if you have the right assist. I bow down to your superior strategy. I've never thought of that before. Don't call assists. Then, when he chips, stop it with assists. Your superior strategy will overcome all that I can throw at you. quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT You mentioned the only charaters that could rush down SS is Mags, Strider/Doom, well, I think Storm could do the same thing IF she wanted too, and so can Cammy. And what you don't seem to understand is, the WOS has HOLES in it, that makes it easy to hit Spiral, my assist can either take a hit for me and then I can hit Spiral, and or I can take a hit for my assist and they can hit her. I've faced the WOS before, people have tried MANY strats against my team (with a Spiral based team), and IT DOESN'T WORK. One way or another OR can get that C.HK in and Spiral gets worked the rest of the time she's in there. Maybe it's me, not seeing a good enough Spiral, or its you who hasnt' seen a good enough OR. Well, since I had to go somewhere by suprise yesterday, i'll comment on your post before this one. WOS has holes? OMG! I never knew! Wait, I'm getting a revolation. If WOS has holes, and I can figure out where they are, then I can stop doing WOS and wait for my opponent to exploit the holes and then punish him accordingly. But, of course that won't work, cuz OR is just too good. quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT Trons assist does great damage, but usually the way I've seen it used is for a cross up helper. I haven't seen it used for assist killing. As for Tron on point, I haven't seen a good one yet, and I would rather leave that out. Ruby on the other hand, I've seen decent ones, but not good ones. I've seen that C.HK xx Pillar, but nothing else, I haven't seen anyone try to assist kill with that though. But I strongly dissagree with assist killing with her her fire ball super. It doesn't cover the whole screen, like the Hair Storm, HSF, and AHVB. And since she is using her body, some moves can knock her out of it, (particullarly beam attacks) if you have the assist and the point charater, the point charater can push block and the assist will sometimes get away. You know, IIRC, I said something like she doesn't need to focus on the assists. She should be focusing on the point. Let me go into a bit more detail here. Her pillar allows her to summon a pillar that an opponent can't go through. After a certain point, the pillar goes up regardless of whether she's hit or not. Ruby can move around while the pillar is still on the screen. So, if you make a point character block, you are free to move around where ever you want and get into position to drop an assist or get into position to try to land another pillar move, etc. On the majority of characters this is in her best interest because if she tries to attack assists, it usually ends up in her loosing control of the match. As I said before, if she needs to (or has the opportunity if a previous character had damaged an assist) she can use her punch super to do some damage and then DHC to a character that will do more. This is not necassary to win. It is an added bonus. I would not recommend doing so unless it will kill a character. I would also not recommend doing it against characters that can punish you for landing whatever super you're going to DHC to. quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT Don't say that I don't know what Spiral strategies your talking about, because, someone probably already tried it on me. If someone had tried them on you already, I wouldn't be responding to this right now. Posted by BshidoHEAT on 08:15:2001 02:40 AM: quote: Originally posted by FluffyXXL I bow down to your superior strategy. I've never thought of that before. Don't call assists. Then, when he chips, stop it with assists. Your superior strategy will overcome all that I can throw at you. WOS has holes? OMG! I never knew! Wait, I'm getting a revolation. If WOS has holes, and I can figure out where they are, then I can stop doing WOS and wait for my opponent to exploit the holes and then punish him accordingly. But, of course that won't work, cuz OR is just too good. You know, IIRC, I said something like she doesn't need to focus on the assists. She should be focusing on the point. Let me go into a bit more detail here. Her pillar allows her to summon a pillar that an opponent can't go through. After a certain point, the pillar goes up regardless of whether she's hit or not. Ruby can move around while the pillar is still on the screen. So, if you make a point character block, you are free to move around where ever you want and get into position to drop an assist or get into position to try to land another pillar move, etc. On the majority of characters this is in her best interest because if she tries to attack assists, it usually ends up in her loosing control of the match. As I said before, if she needs to (or has the opportunity if a previous character had damaged an assist) she can use her punch super to do some damage and then DHC to a character that will do more. This is not necassary to win. It is an added bonus. I would not recommend doing so unless it will kill a character. I would also not recommend doing it against characters that can punish you for landing whatever super you're going to DHC to. If someone had tried them on you already, I wouldn't be responding to this right now. People like Cable, can stop SS from his Lightning super with a good timed AHVB, and that's what I ment about stoping his assist killing game. Dooms AAA, Iceman's Beam, or anyother beam will stop the shrukens, and you'll waste a level. Spiral, has weak ass defense compared to OR, can't chip OR from far away, if she waste her time turtling and calling out Sent, I'll call out my Doom. And Doom beats Sent, OR can punish Sent. Now if Spiral super jumps the Omega Destroyer, she still has to land in it and recieve a little block damage. Then she is in the corner and ya'll start over again. (See it won't work, OR is too good against Spiral) Now, I don't want to brag and all, but my OR is good, I've gotten a couple of complements from tourney players. About Ruby Heart, if you need to DHC from the fire ball super to punish the assist, it's not a good assist killer. quote: If someone had tried them on you already, I wouldn't be responding to this right now. Your responding because you don't want to loose the argument, I don't want to loose it either. We can go on and on.. but unless you come down here (or I go up there) and play. Posted by mixup on 08:15:2001 03:49 AM: you really stink with OR, your signature is dumb Posted by Dank on 08:15:2001 04:08 AM: Omega Red sucks. End of story. There's nothing anybody can say that will make him not suck, he's just not a very good character. He's not HORRIBLE, but he doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell against Spiral or any other top tier. If you disagree, you must be on crack Posted by FluffyXXL on 08:15:2001 07:11 AM: quote: Originally posted by BshidoHEAT People like Cable, can stop SS from his Lightning super with a good timed AHVB, and that's what I ment about stoping his assist killing game. Dooms AAA, Iceman's Beam, or anyother beam will stop the shrukens, and you'll waste a level. Spiral, has weak ass defense compared to OR, can't chip OR from far away, if she waste her time turtling and calling out Sent, I'll call out my Doom. And Doom beats Sent, OR can punish Sent. Now if Spiral super jumps the Omega Destroyer, she still has to land in it and recieve a little block damage. Then she is in the corner and ya'll start over again. (See it won't work, OR is too good against Spiral) Now, I don't want to brag and all, but my OR is good, I've gotten a couple of complements from tourney players. About Ruby Heart, if you need to DHC from the fire ball super to punish the assist, it's not a good assist killer. Your responding because you don't want to loose the argument, I don't want to loose it either. We can go on and on.. but unless you come down here (or I go up there) and play. That's fine with me. I was getting tired of spelling out my strategy to you anyway. Just know that the imminent beatings will be severe. You have from this day on to prepare. Posted by Colin on 08:16:2001 09:03 AM: Dude, Bushido is right on this one. I use OR/Storm/AAA and I can tell you that that team beats every Spiral team I've ever seen absolutely for free. I even give very good spirals a hard time with them and I'm talking about players that are way better than me. OR with storm assist destroys Spiral/Sent. The only reason OR is not really good is his terrible weakness against Cable, BH, and Storm. Cable can keep him away all day and OR's main weapons are all AHVB bait. Storm is the only character that controls the ground better than OR since her typhoons stop burrowing coils. But OR is designed to kill Spiral, just like Ruby Heart is designed to kill Spiral. Ruby/Storm/AAA used to be a team I used and they hurt Spiral bad also. I think he's overestimating OR a little but as far as the matchup with spiral goes, OR has all the advantages. -Colin All times are GMT. The time now is 10:24 PM. Show all 57 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.